Smart Business Growth with Nicky & Ness

Why Perfectionism Isn't the Key to Success with Lynne Cazaly

• Nicky & Ness • Season 2 • Episode 20

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In this episode, Lynn challenges the widely held belief that perfectionism and high performance are connected. She explains that putting in more effort doesn’t always equate to better results, introducing concepts like the Pareto principle and the law of diminishing returns. Lynn also delves into how old work cultures, focused on hard work and perfectionism, can hinder productivity. She encourages leaders to redefine success, embrace new ways of working, and understand that a well-defined "done" is better than endless striving for perfection.

Episode Highlights:

  • Debunking the myth: Perfectionism vs. high performance.
  • Introduction to the Pareto principle and the law of diminishing returns.
  • The impact of old work cultures on productivity.
  • Embracing new ways of working: Agile principles and lean manufacturing.
  • The importance of defining "done" before starting a task.
  • Leadership strategies for fostering a non-perfectionist work environment.

Learn more about Nicky and Ness https://businesstogether.com.au

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Nicky Miklos-Woodley 0403 191 404
Vanessa (Ness) Medling 0400 226 875

Or send us an email hello@businesstogether.com.au

Music by Jules Miklos-Woodley

Nicky:

Welcome to the Smart Business Growth Podcast with Nicky and Ness.

Ness:

We would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of country, the Turrbal and Bunurong people of Brisbane and Melbourne respectively, where Nicky and I both work and live both work and live.

Nicky:

Have you ever found yourself falling into the trap of perfectionism, this never-ending cycle of good enough is not enough? A lot of our clients, a lot of the people in our community, resonate with this, and this is why we asked Lynn Cazaley to join us today to talk about perfectionism, the impact that it has on high performance, on the team, and understanding how to break some of the cycles that hold us back when we're really holding ourselves and our team to a standard that's unreachable. Lynn is an expert in this space. She's an expert in new ways of thinking, leading working. She's an international keynote speaking and an award-winning author, with some of the ideas that we talked about today, some of them have been shared in one of her 10 books that she's published. Now Lynne appears in all media channels as an expert again on modern work, on the future of work, and some of her ideas have been published in Harvard Business Review, forbescomau and many other media and business publications. So we were very, very fortunate today to be able to pick her brain and to really be able to turn some of these ideas around the future of work, new ways of working, into practical, actionable steps for not only you, but also for your team. So enjoy, and we'll see you on the other side.

Nicky:

Lynn, thank you so much for being here. For a start, we are thrilled to have you here because you know perfectionism, just perfectionism. If you're watching on YouTube, we're all pulling faces right now, and one of the first times that I know I came across your work and I was in a masterclass that you ran, which was amazing. You said a statement that has stuck with me and I think this is a great starting point for us to delve into. You challenged mine and everybody's thinking on the masterclass when you said perfectionism and high performance are not related. I'm just going to repeat that for the listeners Perfectionism and high performance are not related. I'm just going to repeat that for the listeners Perfectionism and high performance are not related. Please tell us a little bit more about that.

Lynne Cazaly:

Thank you, great to be with you and your listeners today. Yes, when I was researching information for my book-ish not book-ish, but book-ish about perfectionism and I came upon this work where they were saying that, you know, putting in extra effort does not mean you're going to get extra result, and that's the Pareto principle, and it's the law of diminishing returns, and it's the sunk cost fallacy, and there's a whole range of these economic principles and, I guess, laws of physics and laws of human effort that we tend to forget when we are knee deep in. You know the excitement of I'm going to do this and it's going to be amazing, and so this high performance, you can be a high performer and only have put in, you know, 90 seconds of effort, but it could be incredible an incredible 90 seconds right in your zone of you know some people talk about genius or you know your zone of your greatest strengths, or you know the area of the stuff that you find quite effortless but you know to perform really well.

Lynne Cazaly:

nor does it mean the results are going to be really good. And understanding and absorbing these sorts of principles, I think, are some of the parts that can hurt. They can make us go, but no, but I've been trying to do and that's okay, just go, yep, all right. Okay, just go, yep, all right. So now we know some new things about performance and behavior and the way we think about doing work and the way we think about how we might create something or make something.

Ness:

Wow, because I think about when you say that there are cultures in businesses that I see and I've experienced as an employee that are all about. You know, the longer you get the award for staying at work, the longest, and my belief system that I've had to change over the years is you need to work hard in order to get a good result. Right, you need to work hard for money or whatever. So what do you notice then, if there's a, is it a mindset shift or is it a practicality that people need to see for them to believe that's the case? Like, how do we get over that hump of? But I've always done it this way. I've never linked or thought about I'm putting all this effort in but not really noticing whether, or playing with, my results are improving or not. You know, going backwards depending on how many hours I work. So really curious what's your experience? When you speak to leaders and teams about this? How do they respond?

Lynne Cazaly:

They respond in different ways because this is not just a mindset and it's not just a practical skill. This is a you know perfectionism, particularly in the hard work culture, is generational I often talk about in workshops or keynotes just to have a think about who did you learn work from? And you may have learned work from, and I'll often ask did you learn it from a fast food restaurant? You know, do you learn about processes and systems through the retail or fast food world, which is fantastic, because many of those have found high efficiencies and, you know, based on lean manufacturing processes to remove waste. And so those of us that may not have learned work there, so we might have learned work from our parents or from relatives, family, from our early job roles where we worked for tyrants of bosses, whatever that thinking about. Where did I learn the culture of my work practices from? And I think this is a really interesting opportunity to think about that, because some people are highly efficient. They notice when they're wasting time and effort. They don't have such a hang up about it has to be perfect, or it's not good enough, or I can't put it out there yet, or what will people think of me? Yet other people do. Other people sweat over things and say this is a reflection of me and my personality, and so all of us are reflected in every workplace.

Lynne Cazaly:

So we find all of these types of people who some people who are highly efficient workers, who cut to the chase and get the thing done. And we've got other people who are highly efficient workers, who cut to the chase and get the thing done. Then we've got other people who are deep on relationships and conversation and connection, so they might take a bit longer. And then other people going what, what's wrong with how I work? And the bigger generational thing. It's all connected to what are called new ways of working, and these have been sweeping the world over the last 15 to 20 years and many people have been entirely oblivious to the fact that they might be using what I call old ways of working.

Lynne Cazaly:

And so new ways of working, or NWOW, many people say these are based on agile principles or on lean manufacturing, on systems thinking, on design thinking. Some of these, you know, a meld or mash up of these sorts of principles can really get you great efficiency and fantastic results. So, yeah, the response can be varied. Some people are elated to go ah, you know this is exciting. How good is this going to be? And yeah, quite a few people are like, no, don't try and change the way things work around here. Right, this is my domain in here and you're not going to change, you're not going to make people more efficient, you're not going to make me look silly.

Nicky:

And I imagine there's a fear in that as well of letting go. So what we find with a lot of our clients is that they're so used to doing things in a certain way that if they change the way that they're working, it's almost like letting go, particularly business owners and senior leaders when we're looking at working with them to empower their leaders or their team members to move from being doers to more decision makers, to create space for that senior leader or business owner to step back. So there's a real fear there around letting go, which. There's a real fear there around letting go which there's quite a few drivers around that even it could be the martyrdom. It could be the busy badge that we love to wear as human beings in this modern day society. It could be genuine no trust or not enough transparency in the team. But I think what's really interesting as well what you're talking about there, leanne, is I'm know I heard you describe a couple of different natural styles of working. So some people just want to get in and get it done. Other people I want to have a think about it, I need to marinate or talk things through, and I guess that brings up for me this conversation around when we're moving towards from perfectionism to a place of ish, and be great to get some clarity on what that means, which is the title of your book and quite groundbreaking, I think, in terms of how we view perfectionism.

Nicky:

But also, this isn't about one specific way of working. It's still allowing you to be you, whether you're a deep thinker or a big picture doer or wherever you sit in between. This isn't saying you have to do something in one particular way. It's actually understanding is my behavior helping or hindering? Is it resourceful or unresourceful? Am I being as efficient as I can be or not? Does that make sense? So I guess what's the question in that? Did you pick up a question in that? There's a few threads there, but I'm just really excited by this combo. So we'll get to understanding this place of ish. But also, it's not about one size fits all, is it? And if it's not, what is it about? How do we break this cycle?

Lynne Cazaly:

Well, it kind of depends where you're working. You know, if you're working for yourself, you have incredible freedom to start working in new ways. Today, nobody is holding you to the principles and practices and methods and systems that you're using. You can start working differently now and yet you know, you may well work in a team, in an organisation that has much more control. So they're still hanging on to the old ways of working, of command and control. Now it might be disguised, as you know consultation and collaboration but I'll also work with businesses on helping them be more creative around their collaboration, being more innovative perhaps in how they collaborate and getting people in on the process or getting them in on the consultation earlier.

Lynne Cazaly:

So we often see that consultation or collaboration, but it's just information. You know that's being dressed up as consultation and so that's a big shift. You can start walking around going. Yeah, I'm individual and I need to work in these ways, and that can cause a whole range of thieves in a team with a leader who's not really equipped with more modern ways of thinking about leadership. So being able to handle the diversity of the way people think and the way people want to work. So I think a great way to look at is how much freedom have you got to change where you currently are? And I think we all know people who've left one employer and gone to another and they go. It's completely different. You know, it's fantastic. I feel liberated, and they are. They're liberated from controlling structures and systems that are everywhere in society, but in some organisations and in some pockets and some units and some teams, they're just stronger than in others.

Ness:

Absolutely, and I think the key there is.

Ness:

Then you mentioned about the leadership, having the ability to work with the different styles, and I guess, really, it boils down to bringing out the best in each of your team and so having the agility to be able to realize that you know, for me there's a different way to bring out my best than there is for Nicky, and then there is for Lynn, and you know everyone else in the team.

Ness:

So what do you notice, then, in the traits of the leader who is able to embrace this ability to shift their focus from control command but maybe they're not even I, actually, I don't believe they would be control command and having the ability to do a complete flip around right, because I think that's ingrained in the way that those leaders lead. But for up and coming leaders or for business owners who are wanting to engage their team because they're growing and they want to bring on a leader or you know, having that ability to go okay, I get to play in this space now what is it that they need to bring to their leadership in order to allow for people to drop the perfectionism, to focus on their zone of genius, to tap into what's going to make them achieve their best individual result.

Lynne Cazaly:

Yeah, I think there's a number of things around that leadership style, but if they can think about how would they like to be led, it's one of the places I often go to, rather than aspiring to be this unknown, glorified, perfect leader, to think about what would make them feel good and what sort of leadership style would work for them. So a classic one I saw last week with a team was you know, we welcome mistakes and they don't really. They don't really. They say they welcome and invite mistakes and make mistakes and fail fast and all of these platitudes. But really what happens when someone does make a so-called mistake, like even that kind of cult, and to see how does the leader respond to that. Do they respond? Like the whole question of whether they, whether they respond to it or whether they just let it go and let the team sort it out or let the person who knows that they learned something new or flurned. I loved reading about that word flurning, which is the combination of failing and learning.

Ness:

Oh, that's a new one for me.

Nicky:

Yeah me too.

Lynne Cazaly:

I haven't heard that for me yeah, me too, I haven't heard that rather than thinking that we welcome mistakes, but really you don't. So to me, that's one of the first points that you can see what the culture's like and how that new to leadership, that person might, might respond to things that don't go according to plan. You know whose plan was that? Was that plan written down anywhere? Was it visualized? Was it transparent? Was it shared? Was it unknown and understood? Or was it a plan or a perception in the mind of the leader that never really was communicated and so people didn't know that they were needing to reach particular standards and they probably didn't even know they'd made that mistake.

Nicky:

And that point around. You know we can say it's kind of like when we talk about you can have a bunch of values stuck up on the wall, but if they're not actually being, if it doesn't mean anything to the people in the culture, in the team, like for what purpose? It's just a checklist.

Nicky:

Oh, we've got to be a culture that's okay with mistakes. We better say this, but what's the action? The actions speak louder than those words. Do the smart growth survey in under 60 seconds to get your hands on our smart growth blueprint, you'll get immediate access to our four favorite strategies for sales, profit planning and team, and you'll identify which phase of smart growth your business is currently in, whether it's crisis, build growth or momentum mode, so that you can move your way to the next phase with ease. All you have to do is click the link in the show notes. So I'm really curious. You know, when we think about and we talk about, we're looking at the different new ways of working, and if we bring it back to this place of perfectionism and the fact that actually, perfectionism can keep us stuck. You know what you said before more effort doesn't mean more results. So you know. I know, though, when, for us all three of us and our listeners you know we like to be high performers.

Ness:

We like to get results.

Nicky:

We want to there's an element of hard work that we're like we're here to get results, we're here to get a job done.

Nicky:

So how do we not be perfectionists and still hold a standard? Because I know, even in some of the coaching sessions I have with particular clients and this might be a bit of an outdated statement, but it's been one that's served, and maybe you'll replace this for me, lynn but one thing that we talk about is done is better than perfect, and I know that was on the Facebook walls over a decade ago, but it served us very well, because done is better than perfect and it can get people out of a state of stuck to just take some action. But some of the conversations I've had, particularly with those highly analytical, detailed people that tend to even fall into perfectionism, perhaps even more they're like yeah, but what about the standard that we're shooting for? And by no means are we ever saying drop a standard to below minimum standard or minimum standard, but sometimes there's a standard in between. So how do we let go of perfectionism and still hold to a certain standard in what we're doing?

Lynne Cazaly:

Yeah, well, what is that standard? And that's the problem we often face is that we start with an imaginary, conjured standard. Some people have that visual coming to their mind. I know some people don't think in images and pictures. They might think in words or a statement, or they might think about how they feel when this thing's done and that's the word done.

Lynne Cazaly:

So you need to have what software developers call the definition of done. And this is why the phrase done is better than perfect is for me a platitude today, because it doesn't make me feel better as a perfectionist, because still my standard of done is going to be very high. And that phrase it's not done yet. We can have that internal dialogue with ourselves no, it's not done yet, I'm not done with it yet. Or I can't hand that piece of work off to a colleague because I'm not done with it yet.

Lynne Cazaly:

So the software developer's mantra of the definition of done you work that out before you start working on the task. So if you've got your definition of done, you work that out before you start working on the task. So if you've got your definition of done before you even start working, then you'll know when you get there and you'll also perhaps pick up when you've shifted your definition of done and that definition of or that metaphor of, you know the moving goalposts, is that we do. Once we get into a piece of work or a project, yeah, our perception and our view of how this is going to be does tend to shift. Again, we're conjuring these images about how it's going to be or how it's going to look or how it's going to feel, and that can shift. So if we don't have a definition of done, so starting with that description of what it's going to be like, we'll know when we get there and then you can move on to the next bit and the next bit and the next bit and the next bit.

Lynne Cazaly:

But if your definition of done is, you know, a 12 page website with all the videos embedded and working perfectly, and the shop attached to it and all of these things, how long are you then going to work on that, to get to that definition of done? Because you might lose the motivation in between. Progress is huge motivation for people and for teams, and I don't think we, you know, leverage that angle of oh, we've done that bit, you know we are done, and to therefore tick it off and feel good about it, so you can put whatever standard you like into your definition of done. It's the fact that you know what it is you're going for, rather than nebulous you know. Oh, what could it be like?

Ness:

Yeah, wow, that's really powerful. For because I think I just don't know that there's a lot of conversations on done. You know, I from my experience even Nicky in our business I think there's an unwritten sort of like telepathic way that we just communicate with each other about what we believe done is, and maybe we have had conversations throughout the time where we kind of get a sense of what that looks like for our business. But when I think about the pace of business especially, you know, talking about businesses that are growing at a fast pace and they're bringing people on and they're in that really sort of chaotic growth spurt phase or thinking about you know, what I see in larger businesses is the cost cutting. So now we're going to have to do more with less. We're going to have less people in the team, you're going to have more staff to look after.

Ness:

It's just so fast that I wonder how often in reality we actually do stand back and say, all right, let's just all get clear on the definition of done here before we run off in a hundred different directions to get this piece of work done and finished.

Ness:

But what I see the advantage of it, by the way you've described it, it's like this blinding flash of the obvious for me, that actually, that allows each individual to be very clear on what it is they need to produce and to do it in a way that works well for them, because they're really clear on the outcome.

Ness:

And once we're all on the same page with the outcome, with the vision, then it's easier for us to understand how to get there more quickly, because otherwise we're sitting back going well, hang on, I don't really understand what it is you're looking for. You said this, I've provided it to you, and now I've got red, bloody ink over everything and you've crossed out all these things and it's not what you asked for, though. So really want to sort of help people to appreciate and understand that the shift away from power control into bringing out perhaps the best in your team and getting the best result is actually going to take a shift in what actions you take, what behavior you demonstrate and how you interact with your team. So it's not something you can just lay on your team and say you know, this is what they've got to do differently as a leader. We've got to shift how we approach things. Again, I have no question, I think we've started in the conversation.

Lynne Cazaly:

It's an old way of working, right? That's why this can be quite earth-shattering for people. Oh, what a great idea to spend a few minutes. That's all it takes. It doesn't take months to work out what your definition of done is. It takes a few minutes and it is a new way of working. And, yes, people can already have started work. You don't have to wait until everybody's ready and that we all get together and explain what the definition of done is, which is another old way of working, which is synchronous work, which is we all have to be here ready at the same time or we all have to be here at the same meeting. So we're working synchronously now the three of us.

Lynne Cazaly:

But hello to those who are listening asynchronously. You're listening after the event, You're listening at a time that works for you. So that's a book that I wrote a year or two ago about the changing nature of work, and this is again less. You kind of will get more control, or you'll get more oversight and you'll have less pressure on people by working more asynchronously, and so that's yet another, you know newer way of working that can really ease the pressure off the team, and they're already doing some of it. Now my suggestion is just do more of it. Just do more.

Nicky:

And I think another thread that I'm picking up in this conversation is the asynchronicity, asynchronous way of working. Did I get that right? There's a flexibility in that. It comes back again, I'm wondering. The more we're able to work still as a team, but our way of working. To work still as a team but our way of working, then the pressure isn't on the individual as much. And perhaps the perfectionism which could be driven by self-doubt getting it right, the cost, what's the risk of getting it wrong? This culture we're creating to work in flow can maybe alleviate a bit of that perfectionism as well as working to our natural style.

Nicky:

And the other thing I'm hearing in this is it's not just about that big goal, it's about shorter. So we can define what done looks like this week. We talk about a process of our weekly five to thrive. Well, what does done look like this week? This is a big project with 12 pages on the website and all these videos and all this big target we're achieving for the year. Okay, but what does done look like this week, this month, this time period for us to be on track, to be able to get there? So, again, when you're clear on that, there's the trust in your team. There can be the transparency. We can go and work asynchronously. Damn it, I thought.

Nicky:

I had it you know what I'm talking about to be able to have that flow and allow people to be empowered and autonomous to bring. They're in your team for a reason. They're in your team for a reason, and if they're not, if they're not delivering, then that's a whole other conversation, right? So trust them, give them the tools so they can go and do what they need to do. Now, I'm aware of time. I'm also aware that we need to look back on ish, because some people are going to be thinking what was the ish thing? So let's quickly touch on the ish, yeah, before we get to the end.

Lynne Cazaly:

So ish is a word in itself. It's at the end of words like Danish and Swedish, but it's become more of a word of itself in recent times, where people refer to it as near enough. So when someone says oh, what time will, how long will it take you to get there? Oh, 10 minutes ish. So there's this pause, and I've heard Taylor Swift say it, I've heard Oprah Winfrey say it. It's a global word, it even pops up in other languages and my view was that the idea of near enough I'll be there in 10 minutes approximately, or near enough.

Lynne Cazaly:

And so how could we have more near enough at work? Because we ish all day in our lives and it doesn't matter. And so, instead of accidentally or unconsciously ishing, I'm suggesting why don't you deliberately ish that? Why don't you just whack something together real quick and put that out as a first draft and see how it goes? And so often that first near enough ish thing turns out to be fantastic and forms the basis of the finished product or finished piece. So the fear for perfectionists is it won't be good enough and we go, but you will get there, but you've got to start with something.

Nicky:

So maybe that's the replacement for done is better than perfect. Maybe we're upgrading, we're elevating that phrase to embracing the ish yes, yeah.

Lynne Cazaly:

Or let it be ish, you know. Embracing the ish yes, yeah. Or let it be ish, you know. Did you ish today? And I always say people ished when they were brushing their teeth, when they were looking at themselves in the mirror, when they're working out what?

Nicky:

to wear.

Lynne Cazaly:

You've already ished a lot. You've ished for breakfast. Yeah, you say things like yeah, that'll do, that'll do, that's good that, yeah, you say things like yeah, that'll do, that'll do, that's good, that'll do. And you make a call and move on to the next thing and just keep doing that throughout the day, absolutely, and if we know what done means it's easier for us to get there.

Ness:

So if done is I need to send this report through to someone, then the issue is it's a dirty first draft, you know someone could have a look at it, but at least I've got words down on a piece of paper rather than that perfectionism going it's got to be perfect before it even goes yeah, never be perfect, so good enough.

Lynne Cazaly:

A lot of people hear that, but again, working with software developers, I've learned that they have a standard which is called JBGE, which is just barely good enough, and it's just barely good enough to get out there and be interacted with to say is there a market for this? Does this work? Are we on the right track? Were we actually on the same page? And then you can work with it in more detail rather than heading off down this path of doing all this stuff. Hello, course, creators who are out there creating huge courses and then making it go live and only three people buying it.

Lynne Cazaly:

Yeah, that's the perfect example of where perfection took hold.

Nicky:

And even I'm thinking, you know, with leaders rolling out different like sales incentives, rolling out different programs or all sorts of you know internal reward schemes, things like that, even within the team. You know so much work can be done behind the scenes and then the team like meh nah that doesn't even motivate me Like get them involved come up with the first dirty draft and test it?

Lynne Cazaly:

Yeah Amazing. Did you test it? Did you experiment with it?

Ness:

So, picking up on that, and as we wrap up our conversation today, what I would really love for you to provide our listeners with Lynn, is what's something that we can do, like take an action within the next 24 hours that's going to help us move towards ish or move towards. You know, this whole focus about shifting the way we work, the way we think, in order to be able to take some pressure off and just be working in our genius zones where we can realize, oh, I don't have to work really long hours in order to get that result, if I just focus here. So what's an actionable action that we can all jump on board with in the next 24 hours?

Lynne Cazaly:

Notice. I think you will begin to notice now that we've been talking about it. You'll begin to notice over the next 24 hours the number of times you do ish on life, general life related things. And the sky doesn't fall down, the world doesn't end. There's no great chaos. That happens Usually. People don't notice, you get away with it. So there, people don't notice, you get away with it. So there's this idea. I got away with it. So simply notice how much you already ish in life generally and then wonder why aren't I letting that happen in my business or with my team?

Lynne Cazaly:

And that's just perfectionism trying to protect you. So just notice the next 24 hours how many things you ish on and allow that to start spreading into your work world.

Ness:

Love it. That's amazing. So if people out there listening or watching want to learn more of you, where can they go out into the interwebs to find you?

Lynne Cazaly:

You can find me at my website, lynncazaleycom. Also on LinkedIn, instagram. Probably the two main places I hang out and, yeah, love to see you there.

Ness:

Absolutely. We'll put the links in the show notes, but also books are available on your website. Would that be right?

Lynne Cazaly:

Yeah, and where you get your books, so several of them are in if you've got an Audible or audiobook subscription. So there's a few there. You might want to click on one of those for this month and A books as well.

Ness:

Yeah, fantastic. Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure talking to you today. You've actually really kind of blown my mind in a couple of areas and created a shift already. So so much value. Thank you, lynne. Thank you listeners. Thank you, Nicky. We'll see you next week. Thank you, too. See you later, thank you, bye. Thanks for listening to today's ep. If you loved what you heard, connect with us over on LinkedIn and let's continue the conversation over there. Nicky and I are obsessed with helping businesses install smart business growth strategies and leveraging people leadership for peak performance. We bring two business minds and two perspectives into your business, and our number one goal is to make sure that your business is thriving, your team are thriving and you are thriving. We offer a 30 day business diagnostic, taking you from chaos to clarity in just 30 days. Are you curious to find out more? Send us an email or go old school and give us a call. Until next time, happy listening and here's to thriving in business and in life.