Smart Business Growth with Nicky & Ness

Addicted to Success: The Entrepreneur's Dilemma

• Nicky & Ness • Season 2 • Episode 10

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Introduction: In this episode, Ness and Nicky delve into the often-overlooked downside of reaching peak business momentum. While a smoothly running business is the goal, it can lead to feelings of insignificance and withdrawal for business owners who are no longer the centre of attention. They explore the psychological impacts and the addiction to being needed, offering insights and strategies for maintaining a healthy balance.

Episode Highlights:

  • The Ideal Business State: Discussion on achieving a smoothly running business and the implications for the business owner.
  • The Downside of Not Being Needed: The psychological impact of stepping back and not being the hero.
  • Entrepreneurial Addiction: Insights from psychotherapist Amy Morin on work addiction and its parallels to other addictions.
  • Self-Worth and Business Success: How entrepreneurs link their self-worth to their business achievements.
  • Signs of Psychological Dependence: Six signs of work addiction including obsessive thoughts, withdrawal, and increased tolerance.
  • Balancing Work and Personal Life: Strategies for maintaining a healthy work-life balance and recognising when business habits become unhealthy.

Tune in to gain a deeper understanding of the psychological aspects of business success and learn practical tips for overcoming the challenges of stepping back.

Learn more about Nicky and Ness https://businesstogether.com.au

Buy a copy of Healthy Hustle: The New Blueprint to Thrive in Business & Life www.healthyhustle.com.au

Follow us on socials
Instagram - @b2businesstogether
Facebook - @B2BusinessTogether

Connect on LinkedIn
Nicky LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/connectwithnicky/
Ness LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/vanessamedling/

Give us a call
Nicky Miklos-Woodley 0403 191 404
Vanessa (Ness) Medling 0400 226 875

Or send us an email hello@businesstogether.com.au

Music by Jules Miklos-Woodley

Nicky:

Welcome to the Smart Business Growth Podcast with Nikki and. Ness.

Ness:

We would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of country, the Turrbal and Bunurong people of Brisbane and Melbourne respectively, where Nikki and I both work and live, both work and live. You know we often talk about ideally. We get to a point in our businesses where we're in momentum, where the business is running smoothly, where we're aspiring to have this great team around us that are operating at peak performance and, you know, our profits are great, our planning's great, sales are great, everything's great right, and it's that kind of point in time where you're able to, as a business owner, really think about stepping out of the business, because it's so much more not reliant on who you are, you being everything to everyone. But I reckon it's really important to discuss the downside of that, because this is what we aspire to and yet not being as needed in the business and the business running smoothly in your absence, it doesn't give you or us, as business owners, the opportunity to sweep in and save the day. And you know, feel like this level of significance and importance and the validation that you gain by being the one that people turn to to solve the problems of the day when results aren't solely reliant on you, it really means that you have to let go, and that's so hard when you have created something from the ground up and it's done in the way that you want it done, to not kind of want to get back in and go.

Ness:

Oh, no, no, no, you're. You know, I would do it this way, even though the way that your team might be doing it is getting the same result that you were getting from doing it your way. And I think you know, when you think about it, it means that you don't have to turn up to work every day. It doesn't matter if you're out of work. And that may sound like an amazing opportunity that we're like yes, I just can't wait until the day comes that I get to do anything I want in theory, but in reality it's like you know, when people say, I just want to go and lie on a beach. If you could do anything at all, like paint a picture of how your world would be, like We'd be bored within five days, 10 days, if we just sat on a beach all day.

Ness:

So it's that whole thing around. The challenge is, you are not the center of everything, and being needed in the business can be really addictive, and it's probably one of the main reasons that you, as the business owner, are actually the bottleneck in the business, because your team just want to get on with it right and you are turning up creating this need to be needed. So I know, nikki, when you were researching for the book, you came across some work by a psychotherapist and a mental health author called Amy Morin. I'd love you to share what you discovered in that and let's have a conversation about what this entrepreneurial addiction kind of looks like and how it plays out.

Nicky:

It was really fascinating and not surprising that this is a key piece in one of the chapters in our book, because you know when we're talking about healthy hustle and smart growth in business and you know when you said the whole comment around, after five, 10 days we'd get bored lying on the beach. I kind of feel like you know if we've gotten this far in business you're a business owner, a leader, you're successful it's kind of in your DNA to want more, to keep going, to find the next thing. I was talking to a business owner at a lunch event last week who was saying he's got this great business really successful. It's 10 years, it's set up, the business is running itself and he's hungry for more, he's kind of bored and he's not going to want to just go and lie on the beach or play golf for 10 days or whatever the equivalent is, because it's like what's that next thing that I can build from the ground up? And we all have that next thing, whether it's building something from the ground up or it could still be doing different things, but it's kind of not in our DNA.

Nicky:

And I think this is such an important conversation to have and I was really excited when I saw this article by Amy, who really outlined this comparison of addiction to work to any other addiction. And now this could be again. You could be a leader, a business owner. You might not even be a business owner or leader you might be aspiring to be that it's so easy for us to get addicted to our work and addicted to the feeling of being needed. I mean, I have got so many examples of business owners around. I want this great thing and freedom. It's like cool, we're going to make that happen. Okay, how come you keep stepping in there? How come you keep you know like, ah, it's like you keep stepping in there. How come you keep you know? It's like, like you said, the theory sounds great, but the reality is it's damn fricking hard to step back and potentially it is because you're addicted to work.

Nicky:

So Amy talks about addiction being compulsive engagement in rewarding stimuli despite the adverse consequences. So, compulsive engagement in rewarding stimuli despite the adverse consequences. So, for example, somebody who has a gambling addiction they might keep going back to the pokies even though they're dead. So there's a rewarding stimuli they're getting, but they're in debt and they still keep going back. The sporadic wins are enough positive reinforcement to keep going back.

Nicky:

So when we flip the switch of this and have a look at it from the perspective of when we're addicted to work and hey, I'm going to totally put my hand up here, and it was really interesting writing this chapter in the book because I was like whoa, I recognize some addictive patterns even today, not as many as I used to have, like for sure, but it was super interesting to reflect and to go that level deeper, which we'll do. We'll share with you the science. So even though, for example, working longer hours, you know that might actually lead to social consequences that might have impact on your relationship. I mean your story, ness, about you know Beckess, about Beck asking you when she was young if you'd go to her funeral. That is an impact on social consequence Relationships we have, not just with our partners, our health and wellbeing. But you know that feeling if you're listening, if you're watching our viewers, that feeling where you just can't help yourself. This is the part that I'm just going to send that one last email.

Ness:

Yes.

Nicky:

I've just got to make that one last phone call. I've just got to send off just that final brief for the day and we start kidding ourselves. Or it's just for this period of time, while I'm getting boots on the ground in my new role, or just while we have this. Just that's a bit of an indicator. Even these days I'm like Jules will be saying are you coming for dinner? Yeah, I'm like Jules will be saying are you coming for dinner? What's? Yeah, I've just got to send off one last email and I'm noticing that going hold up. Is this an unresourceful behavior? And sometimes it's not, but sometimes it really is. Yeah, it's that one more always leaves you wanting more.

Ness:

It's so funny. I was having this conversation around sometimes I'm a little bit late, not a lot late, just a little bit late and I was talking to my sister about it and I said here's my funny excuses for that. Maybe it's because we're mums, because as a mum you constantly go, I'll just get a load of washing on, I'll just do the dishes, I'll just do this. Before I do that, I'll just do this, oh, before I leave, I can just get that done. You totally misestimate. So I feel like this does sometimes spill over into. But also, I reckon every day I'm having that at the end of the day thing, especially on the way to, like getting ready for the gym. It's like, oh, if I could just do this. And then I'm like, ah, then I'm walking in five minutes late. So totally relate.

Nicky:

So on that note, you know, when you said like it spills over into everyday life, I wonder if that's because there's an addiction to getting things done, Because I think also, I mean, let's actually break this down. So if we again look at the definition of an addiction, there's a rewarding stimuli, despite the consequences. So is there a negative consequence to being just that little bit late? Because I also think addiction can happen over time from habit and probably the distinguishing factor is there actually a negative impact and negative consequence for that behavior or is it not?

Ness:

I think you just have to ask my kids, because I used to be the last one to pick them up from daycare and then school. They'd be standing there on their own and they'd be sometimes outside work waiting for me, and I'm like I'm so sorry, so I feel like it's part of my personality and work is the excuse. I don't know, I don't know, we digress.

Nicky:

We digress. I guess the point as well of this conversation, as you're listening and on this journey with us, is what is your behavior? What does your behavior tell you and, as Ness and I have been doing now, is it resourceful, is it unresourceful? Is there a positive or negative impact or just kind of a neutral impact, and not just for yourself, but the people around you. When we start to understand this aspect of being addicted to work, understanding why am I the bottleneck, what I say, what I think I want, sometimes it's different in action. It doesn't mean that you don't want it still, but it's a reality check that it's going to feel a little bit uncomfortable when you step back Because, as Ness said, you won't be as needed. You don't get to be the hero as much, but you can be in different ways.

Nicky:

Do the Smart Growth Survey in under 60 seconds to get your hands on our Smart growth blueprint. You'll get immediate access to our four favorite strategies for sales, profit planning and team, and you'll identify which phase of smart growth your business is currently in, whether it's crisis, build growth or momentum mode, so that you can move your way to the next phase with ease. All you have to do is click the link in the show notes. Let's go through and talk about some of these signs of psychological dependence. Which is this addiction, behavioral addiction. So what are some of the warning signs that all of us entrepreneurs out there need to be aware of? Ness, do you want to kick us off? We've got, I think, six different signs to go through.

Ness:

Yeah. So the first one is obsessive thoughts. So this is where you're constantly thinking about your business. You're thinking about getting the next client, you're thinking about introducing the next product, you're thinking about onboarding the next round. You're thinking about everything. You sort of can't let it go. You'll be at dinner and it will be coming, you know, going through your head, oh, you know, and I've got to get that done, and then I'm going to do that, and then maybe we'd invent this and all those kinds of thoughts that come in all day and all night, and outside of work as well. So it's just obsessive. It's funny.

Ness:

I think about this in relation to being in a new relationship. You have obsessive thoughts, right, because it's new and it's exciting, and you can't stop thinking about the other person and all that kind of thing. And I think, especially I look back and reflect on when we went into business, nikki. It was new and it was exciting because we were doing business together, and so that became the obsessive thought. You wake up thinking about it, you go to bed thinking about it, it becomes really all consuming. And the issue and again it comes back to what we talked about earlier the issue is there a negative consequence to that and for me in business, especially in my first business we touched on it the negative consequence to that was not being fully present to my family. It was not actually making time to sort of see my friends and this will come into it later but that obsessive thinking was stopping me from being present and really impacting on probably just having that balance outside you know work-life balance that we are so passionate about in our business and creating this.

Nicky:

It's a good distinction, because it's okay to be a bit obsessive about your business. If you love what you do, you will be. But there's that distinction. Isn't there, ness again, where it starts to impact the people around you or yourself when we can't not be present. When we can't be present sorry, and you know, because we're always thinking about that next and it never turns on. I think that's probably a good indicator that you know if you really struggle to come back to present, being present with your family when you're going, whatever it might be in terms of always obsessing about your business, which I mean, let's face it happens because we are passionate, we care and we want it. You know, we want the business to be awesome. So obsessive thoughts Okay, that's the first one.

Nicky:

The second one is withdrawal. So withdrawal meaning that let's say that you've been working on a really big pitch or a really big project, or launching a new product, launching a new service, entering a new market, whatever. That big, juicy, awesome goal has been that wildly important goal and it's done, and then withdrawal symptoms can occur. So what that could look like in context of business could be you start to get a bit bored, actually, kind of like the guy that I was talking about, the business guy, dude. Okay, great, nikki, you might start feeling a little bit depressed or a little bit anxious or have that feeling of kind of coming down. I remember when I was a kid I used to have that feeling like the party. It was a birthday party, it was so exciting, and then, oh, the crash afterwards. Okay, that was an exaggeration, but you know what?

Ness:

I mean.

Nicky:

So that itchy feeling what's next? What's next? I'm having withdrawal. It's again. You can imagine with people that have alcohol addiction or gambling addiction. It's the same for business. What's the next? Where's my next fix? What's my next thing? So, again, when we it's natural to have a little bit of a comedown and and all of these things might happen a little bit, you know you've got a big, awesome launch happening, or releasing a book or whatever that might be, but is it impacting in a negative way? And also consider these warning signs in conjunction with each other. You've got withdrawal plus. You're obsessively thinking about what's that next? And it's this itchy sort of energy feeling.

Ness:

It's interesting, you know, I experienced that even now. We've been doing some work with, you know, just amazing clients and the projects wrapping up and I'm like I'm already anticipating, oh, I'm going to feel really sad about not being in their worlds all the time. So there is that.

Nicky:

I think that does come and go in business, but this is really we're talking about on a consistent basis and having a bigger negative impact and I think, leading on from that, the next one is about Sorry, can I jump in Because I think also another interesting point I'm just thinking as we're talking through is it's almost like a little bit of withdrawal in context of business probably not in gambling and other addictions maybe isn't so bad, because it could also be the thing that gets you going. Well, what's my next? Yeah, but the healthy versus the unhealth. I just want to throw that out there because actually that can be the thing that makes us go. Okay, where's that next big juicy client that we're going to work with?

Ness:

Yeah, that's very true. But I think when we're starting to see a longer term pattern of anxiety, depression, you know that kind of boredom and the negative impacts, because once we cross over into that kind of mental health space and longer term space, I think that's where it starts to show up more than just. You know that initial, but I'm inspired to keep going or to find another opportunity to work together. Yeah, great point. So the next one is self-worth problems and this is really about and I see this often with entrepreneurs and leaders that are at the top of the game and A-type people. It is the never acknowledging how far you've come and celebrating your success before you're searching for the next thing, and it's impacting on your self-worth, so it's never enough. You know that whole thing around. I only feel successful when this happens and if that's not happening, then I feel like I've failed.

Ness:

It's that whole thing about the voice in our head that continually beats ourselves up because we're not looking at the positive things that we've done and we're just looking at the negative outcomes or maybe what failed. If you have that language in your mindset around business, but also I think it can be around the ups and downs of business because, let's face it, if you're listening and you've been in business in any length of time, you'll know it can be a bit of a roller coaster. It's not a linear upward pattern that occurs and you go from A to B. It really does look like those squiggly lines all over the place. So when we start attaching our self-worth to the business outcome, when we're invested in the outcome and not the process, I think this is where we can really get unstuck.

Ness:

Because if you think about, like you said, when you put all of these layered on top of each other, who am I without this? It becomes. You know this business identity or business ownership identity, leadership identity is your identity. Who am I without this in my world? And so we can start to feel of less value if we're not providing value all the time. Does that make sense?

Nicky:

Yeah, definitely, and this is also why it's so important we talk a lot with our clients and even with ourselves around pause, acknowledge, celebrate what have you achieved, because that's going to help you fulfill that sense of self-worth. And it's really hard to see really successful people doubting themselves so much or have, and it's common and against men and women and non-binary all of us experience this. So it's this linking. You know you've got obsessive thoughts. You're withdrawing once big projects are done and having all those down moods, that kind of stick around. Your self-worth is being questioned or attached to the big projects, the big things that we're doing, or, you know, not acknowledging and seeing what you have achieved, always looking forward Again. It's that one more. And then, if we build on that with, we start to get an increased tolerance.

Nicky:

So the fourth sign is that we have an increased tolerance to our substance of choice, which in this case, is working and potentially unhealthy ways of working. So this is where you start to see the hours become longer and longer. You're not taking lunch breaks, maybe your sleep is being impacted, but that just becomes the norm, that becomes just the way of working. So, just like there's a tolerance to other addictions, the long hours. Well, that's actually just like doing nine to five. There's nothing wrong with that.

Nicky:

But then other people looking from the outside in, depending on who you're around, because if this is a cultural thing, keep in mind, these things could be happening not just with yourself, but with people, other people in your team or you as a leader. How are you impacting your team? It's not about what you say, it's about how you act. You know there's boss watches, that people are always looking for your behavior. So you know, are you having an increased tolerance to unhealthy ways of working? On your holidays is another great example, and we know statistically, majority of business owners don't take holidays and 77% of us don't actually switch off when we're on holidays. So that increased tolerance is a big one.

Ness:

To add to that, I remember working with a client through the COVID times and we were talking about how she was. She worked for a larger organization where everyone can see your calendar, and so it would be meeting after meeting and from 8am in the morning till six or seven at night, and then she would do her work after that. And she said to me I said when do you get a lunch break? And she goes oh no, I don't get a lunch break. That's not factored in to the day. She goes, I don't even get a chance to go to the toilet in between meetings. There is something wrong with that picture.

Ness:

So a couple of things going on there the culture of that business, at that point in time where they just felt like, you know, it was okay to block people out. And thinking about Donna McGeorge, who we interviewed in the first series of this podcast, talking about 45 minute meetings so that people have that opportunity to get a little bit done. And I guess what she had got into this mindset and belief about was well, this is just the way it is now, Wasn't questioning it, wasn't pushing back, wasn't creating boundaries around it, wasn't looking at it as something that actually, to me, that's a pretty terrible work environment for people to be working in at a senior leadership level. What example are you setting to your team? What impact is that having on your health and your wellbeing? And not even a chance for a micro moment in between, and this was consistent and ongoing over a long period of time. So this increased tolerance is real because you become addicted to it, yeah, and you stop putting boundaries in place.

Nicky:

The thing about this Ness is that I also have worked with someone, coached somebody who, exact same conversation, did not have time to go to the toilet to have a loo break and so this so coach, a coaching session was loo break and so a coaching session was dedicated to that. And if two people that we've spoken to with that specific problem, there's definitely going to be more out there. And the thing about this is when you look at and I know there's so many people that know exactly what we're talking about the 8 till 6 PM back-to-back meetings, the challenge is that now is the normal way of working. There's the increased tolerance as an individual and a culture. So when you go to move away from that, let's just say you take Donna McGeorge's advice and set 45 minute meetings instead of one hour. If you actually only book meetings up for us, we only book meetings between 10 and 4 or 3pm, we'll push it out to 4. If you start to put those boundaries in place, heads up, it will feel wrong, it will feel like you're being lazy, it will feel like you're not doing your job all the internal narrative.

Nicky:

So there's this point where you have to. It's you know, when someone dislocates or breaks their shoulder or whatever and they have to readjust it, break it and readjust it or whatever. So this can be changed. But it is a cultural shift. So I get that it's hard and it might feel easier to just keep going as it is now. But then there's an ongoing consequence of that, and not just for you but for your entire team. What if you, as the leader, went cool, these are the meetings that I can control, that we've got booked in for 60 minutes. Let's make them 40 or 45 minutes. Just start there, just start there. So then you've got 15 minutes. You can go to the toilet, move your body a little bit and that will be a starting point. So accept it's going to feel weird at first when you start changing these behaviors. Do it for others, if not for yourself, and just start really small.

Ness:

But we still got two more signs. Two more signs. Yes, that's right, that's right. So neglect is the next one. This is about where other areas of your life come second and are neglected and you can start to see how these are combining together right? So this is where perhaps your health, your family, time with your family, hobbies that you used to do, the amount of sleep you're getting me, hobbies that you used to do, the amount of sleep you're getting I think about, especially the combination within that increased tolerance on your substance of choice Substance can sometimes mean unhealthy eating, like not eating at all, or the glass of wine at the end of a long, hard day, and that becomes an impacting on your health and sleep and all of those kinds of things.

Ness:

And I think back to one of the leaders I was talking to last year who said that work was so full on and so stressful and really this addiction had kicked in for him that weekends he was just drinking and playing video games and that's all he had the capacity for. So he wasn't actually present at all for his family, he couldn't be present with them. So he was neglecting health. He was neglecting family. He wasn't playing golf anymore, he wasn't catching up with his mates for a coffee or on a Saturday morning, and his sleep was impacted because of the poor health. So that was a big warning sign for him. And look, I didn't have this research back then, but I'm sure he would have ticked many more of those boxes during that phase of his work.

Nicky:

That's a really important point, ness, because I also think what happens is it's really easy for people to give themselves a hard time. So you know this guy. He didn't have anything left in his tank on the weekend, so we look to our vices. Anything left in his tank on the weekends, so we look to our vices. I even think back a decade ago. I had a period of time where on the weekends I didn't play video games, but I would just watch Netflix. Sometimes I'd just stay in bed for a lot of the weekend and watch Netflix series and I would give myself such a hard time about this or whatever that unresourceful behavior.

Nicky:

Again is what I want to say is that don't give yourself a hard time about it. There is a reason that's happening and there's a difference between. Sometimes I might still do that, but I don't feel like I don't have energy to do anything else. So instead of giving yourself hard time about whatever that vice is for you that you're landing into, you've got to look behind the curtains to go. What's driving this behavior? There is a reason for it. There is always a reason for it. It's not that you're lazy, a bad human. There's nothing wrong with you. It's not actually your natural state. It's not our natural state as humans to want to do that. So if that's where we're diverting to in terms of behavior, check in with why there's got to be a reason around that. And again, we talk about this in the book as well. I might just pop that there, what those reasons could be and what you can do about it.

Nicky:

But yeah, so neglect, and the final sign is negative outcomes. So all of this is happening, yet you still continue this way of working, despite the negative effect on your health, the negative effect on your relationships, the negative effect on your life. The business is all consuming. You've got your obsessive thoughts, you're withdrawing and unresourcefully looking for the next, or feeling anxiety, depression, whatever those things are. For you, your self-worth is linked, tethered, solely to the business and there's never enough to make you feel like you're worth it. You have this increased tolerance. Unhealthy ways of working are just the norm for you and, potentially, your team. Everything else in life comes second to the business, including your health, everything. And despite all of that, you keep going. If you can resonate, I reckon with even a few of these, but definitely five to six. Just take a moment to pause and I think that's really good timing to look at what our actionable action is.

Ness:

Absolutely Everything you've said. If you see yourself in any of these and see your behavior in any of these, then my desire completely for you in the next 24 hours is to please take the time out to ask yourself two questions. The first question has to be what have I got to gain by continuing to do this? Now I'm going to say because I've coached a lot of people and asked that question that your first response is going to be I've got nothing to gain from it. Nope, nothing at all. But the reality is we don't do a behavior over and over again without getting some level of gain from it, whether that gain is the feeling of comfort around, this familiar feeling of whatever, anxiety, stress, whatever, because that's how we've done business all up until now.

Nicky:

Adrenaline is a big one, Adrenaline yeah absolutely Excitement drama.

Ness:

Yes, dig deep on that one, because you will find that you are gaining something. It could be significance, the fact that I feel important, and that's meeting my need for significance. So that's the first question what have you got to gain? The second question is what have you got to lose if you continue to do this?

Ness:

Now, this is a big one, especially around the negative outcomes, and it reminds me of a conversation I had with one of my business mentors very wise man, been in business for a very long time, but there was a period of time where he went off and did this offshoot of a business and he was totally obsessed by it. I talked to him about all of these signs and he was like every single one didn't tick the box, he was flying interstate, it was all ego driven, but he had a two and a half year old and a baby and a wife and he was never home and when he was home he was obsessively thinking about the next thing and he just had this moment of epiphany and I'm sure other things went on behind the scenes where he realized if I keep going down this path, I'm going to lose everyone that matters the most to me, this young family. This is the reason why I'm doing this, and so you know kudos to him. He pulled the pin on it and just went.

Ness:

No, I can't do that. I'll go back and just have you know, to the business that I set up and that I'm running and I'll let this shiny, bright light go, because I realize what matters the most and I think that you know that is such a powerful instigator of change. Move away from the pain that you're creating around. You know all this because so many people say I just want to set up my family to be comfortable. I wanted you know I'm doing this for my family, but if you turn around and your family aren't there, you kind of got to ask the question was it worth it?

Nicky:

Really powerful. I think that's a really good question. To also add to that, ness. You know, once you've reflected on these questions, why am I doing this business in the first place? Why did I start it, and is that what's being achieved? Because you're so right, the most common reasons that businesses, business owners, start businesses are, you know, for lifestyle freedom which is kind of funny, that's right, we're talking about this to not have a boss. Yet their business turns into a day job and it, you know, so, yeah, super powerful.

Nicky:

And I'm also reflecting on this because the other thing, through you know, through this conversation, and for everybody, regardless of where you sit in terms of resonating with a lot or none of these key areas, is that it can change, and particularly, you've got that type of it's in you to fall into this trap just like any other addict. We have to keep checking ourselves, we have to keep checking in. How am I going with this and is it turning into that unresourceful behavior? Such a powerful conversation. Thank you everybody for joining us and thank you, ness, for these invaluable insights. We can't wait to be in your listening ears again next week.

Ness:

See you later. Thanks for listening to today's ep. If you loved what you heard, connect with us over on LinkedIn and let's continue the conversation over there. Nikki and I are obsessed with helping businesses install smart business growth strategies and leveraging people leadership for peak performance. We bring two business minds and two perspectives into your business, and our number one goal is to make sure that your business is thriving, your team are thriving and you are thriving. We offer a 30-day business diagnostic, taking you from chaos to clarity in just 30 days. Are you curious to find out more? Send us an email or go old school and give us a call. Until next time, happy listening and here's to thriving in business and in life.