Smart Business Growth with Nicky & Ness

Change Management: Overcoming Apathy & Resistance

• Nicky & Ness • Season 2 • Episode 4

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In this episode, Nicky and Ness delve into the complexities of change fatigue, a prevalent issue affecting leaders and teams alike. They begin by discussing the accelerating pace of change in today's world, emphasising the necessity for businesses to adapt and innovate continuously. Citing statistics from the Harvard Business Review and Gartner survey, they highlight the decline in employee willingness to support enterprise change, attributing it to increased uncertainty both in and out of the workplace.

Nicky and Ness explore various factors driving change fatigue, including the innate human desire for certainty and the challenges of balancing individual and collective responses to change. They advocate for proactive leadership approaches, emphasising the importance of communication, trust-building, and understanding individual needs. The conversation touches on strategies such as normalising discomfort, fostering open dialogue, and providing consistent support to navigate through change effectively.

Drawing on personal experiences and insights, Nicky and Ness offer practical advice for leaders to address change fatigue within their teams. They stress the significance of acknowledging employees' concerns, providing clear purpose and direction, and establishing regular touch points for communication and support. Additionally, they highlight the value of reframing language around change and cultivating a culture that embraces adaptability and growth.

Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their leadership practices and consider actionable steps to mitigate change fatigue within their organisations. The episode concludes with a reminder of the importance of consistency, communication, and proactive leadership in fostering resilience and engagement amidst ongoing change.

https://psnews.com.au/five-ways-to-find-more-joy-at-work/92825/ 

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Music by Jules Miklos-Woodley

Nicky:

Welcome to the Smart Business Growth Podcast with Nicky and. Ness.

Ness:

We would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of country, the Turrbal and Bunurong people of Brisbane and Melbourne, respectively, where Nicky and I both work and live, today's ep. I really want us to focus on this thing that I hear about we've heard leaders in our circles talk about recently in relation to change fatigue. So this is something that has been around forever. But interestingly, I came across this quote by Justin Trudeau from the World Economic Forum annual meeting in 2018. So we're talking six years ago and he said the pace of change has never been this fast, yet it will never be this slow again. And when you listen to that and you think about it in the context of that sort of world level right, technology, the way the market's moving, you know just so many things. We only have to look at how quickly the response was to COVID and all of that kind of thing. So this is at a worldwide level and businesses having to react to that and needing to constantly adapt, innovate and change. So the challenge that our leaders out there and business owners face is how do we bring people along the journey and how do we engage them and how do we keep them keen and interested in ensuring that they're going to jump on board with that change and going to implement what it is we want them to implement.

Ness:

And a little stat came up a big stat actually that the Harvard Business Review Gartner Survey talked about employee willingness to support enterprise change collapsed to 43% in 2022, compared to 74% in 2016. Now, no surprise, 2022, let's think what was happening in the world at that stage. So, where people are dealing with uncertainty outside of work, it's even harder for them to accept and deal with uncertainty in work. So if this is sort of the pace, of change has to happen really quickly. We've got to continue to innovate, but people are getting more and more tired and fatigued with change, then we're in this really awkward situation, aren't we as leaders, because we have to find a way to engage our team and move forward. So, Nicky, what are you observing and what have you seen out there as to what drives this gap, I guess, between people wanting to jump on board with change and understanding it's important and yet really just being apathetic about it or disengaged with it?

Nicky:

Yeah, look, this is a common challenge, I would say, for leaders, and it is interesting in that you said at the beginning, it's been around for ages and even if we think about our careers over the last 20 years as leadership and certainly depending on the type of industry that you're working in but that fast pace of change is absolutely impacting more people more often. I really love that quote because it is what was it? Faster than it ever has been before and yet the slowest it will ever be. And even if we just look at the last six to 12 months, even if we look at technology like robots my goodness, have you seen some of those? And we, as the muggles of the world, don't even know what's really happening out there. And so I think this is it's kind of it's a human problem, isn't it? It's like a human behavior when we think about people leadership. When's a human problem, isn't it? It's like a human behavior. It's a when we think about people leadership, when we think about motivating, engaging people. In fact, we can't motivate people. We can help inspire them. We can help show them how to take action and and be lead by examples ourselves.

Nicky:

I think there's a couple of things we need to really consider you know. First of all, what are the conversations we're having around change fatigue. I think it's important to understand what does that actually mean and what does it mean on an individual and a collective level. So, if you're a leader listening to this which chances are you are and if that term has been banded around, well, first of all, understand what's the meaning that's behind it for the individual and as the team, because when you can understand what's driving the meaning, what's the meaning that's behind it for the individual and as the team, because when you can understand what's driving the meaning, what's driving those conversations, then we can start to understand the core problem. It's not just the symptom, it's the root cause that we're dealing with, not just the symptom, symptom, symptom.

Ness:

My gosh Nicky talk properly.

Nicky:

I also think we need to consider, as leaders, what are we doing before it gets to that point? Change is going to happen and we all need to kind of jump on board with that and embrace that, and some teams and businesses have more change than others, but change is prevalent for everybody. As humans, we love certainty. Ness and I have talked and talk a lot about our six core needs and, as a core need that every single human being has on this earth is for certainty, we also have a core need for a variety adventure challenge. But you know, as you said, ness, if there's a lot of uncertainty outside of work, it can impact in work, vice versa. I think I'm going around a little bit in terms of question, but I think it's just important to kind of acknowledge that this is something that everybody's dealing with. It's actually not something new, even though perhaps you feel like it is.

Nicky:

We have been dealing with this for a while and always go back to understanding the meaning and definition of change, fatigue or whatever that buzzword is and, most, most importantly, what's at the root cause of it. So the cultures we have to start creating are change is a part of the norm, but inviting people in for a conversation around how do we embrace change as a collective, and then again, on an individual understanding the individual nuances. I'm going to flip back to you, nesbitt, you know, I know human behavior is something we're both really passionate about, because something that comes up for me is absolutely it's kind of like macro and micro and it's that collective and individual. So what do you think is important when we're looking at an individual perspective on dealing with change, because we can have like team workshops where it's like right, we've got this change coming, or actually you don't even need to use the word change because it's a language uh, how we're, how we're going to support each other through this. But there's some nuances isn't there in the absolutely person, in the team?

Ness:

it takes me back to when I was managing centrelink office. Um, so I I worked for Centrelink for about 15 years, and so every change of government which happened quite a lot every change of minister, so we didn't even have to have a whole government change, we'd have a new minister come in and the minister would want to leave their mark. You know, the senior leadership wants to create a change and then, of course, every budget there's change, and so this is an environment of constant change whereby you don't sign up for that and be afraid of change, right. And yet what I found fascinating is a lot of the people that worked in that organisation. So I worked in a customer service centre. The staff I had had been there for I think the shortest term was 10 years and up to 30 years. So these are people that stay a long time, and usually people who stay a long time in a job role are people who like the certainty of that role. They like the security and comfort of knowing what I do every day. You know there's change within that, but I know where I turn up for work, I know how much I get paid.

Ness:

I kind of get the guise of what it is I'm meant to do here, so to bring those individuals on board who were slow to adapt to change and yet work in an ever-changing environment was really challenging at times. Because the things that I would hear is oh, here we go again, especially those who've been long time. Oh, here we go again. Like this is a minister six years ago who did this. It's never going to work. And so you've got to overcome this. And it was like it just caught on like wildfire. Once one person says it, everyone's like you know, there's just too much change and this. And then they start resisting the change. It's not just being apathetic about it, it's actually being change resistant and then not buying into it and finding shortcuts around it because they think they know better. And so it is a real issue out there when we're dealing with that human behavioural aspect of people who don't want to jump on board.

Ness:

But I think what the bigger picture here is and we'll get into the detail of how to deal with that but if we step back for a moment and go, why does this matter and why is this important when it comes to business? Well, when you start getting disengaged, frustrated, a team that are complaining, who don't want to buy into whatever it is you're doing. Ultimately, we're going to have decreased productivity because they're too busy bitching and moaning at the water cooler and not focused on their work. Absenteeism is going to increase. It's like I remember we had.

Ness:

There was one day of work when I just I couldn't believe the resilience it took to get into work this day because I had the phone that people had to call in when they were sick. At that time I might have had a team of eight. I think Four people rang in sick, one after the other after the other, and it was through a period of a lot going on, a lot of change in the way that we structured the workplace. Just to turn up at work and go, I'm going to have to do like four different roles.

Ness:

It's going to be crazy and hectic and all of that Like as a leader. That was so hard because I was change fatigued, you know, and I've got to lead a team to help them buy on board. So I guess that's the biggest challenge, because people start or stop coming to work, they decrease productivity, they stop coming to work and they're resistant to that initiative. Work and they're resistant to that initiative. So I think that the bigger discussion to have is there are two different aspects to look at this. From One, as you said, the macro. So as a whole team, how do we bond together and go through this together? And then, in the individual conversations, in the coaching conversations I was having with people acknowledging where they're at and how this is impacting on them, because we've got to talk about the elephant in the room.

Ness:

We don't necessarily have to continually use language like change fatigue or change management or anything like that, but we need to understand, as human beings, what are our team experiencing, what are the barriers that are stopping them from moving forward and how can we help to remove those barriers. And sometimes it's just the reminder, at that micro level, of this is to be expected. This is what you've signed up for, this is your job and yet here's the certainty pieces we still do this. You still blah, blah, blah. So I think it's really at the foundation of managing this as a leader. It's about building trust, going hard on that relationship and trust that you build within your team in order to be able to help bring them back in and re-engage, because in a bigger organization it'd be someone else would be there doing this to us again, but in a smaller organization it could just be oh, I'm sick of it my manager's chops and changes, or the person who owned the business. They just land on something. So we've got to continue to build trust. What are your thoughts on that?

Nicky:

I think trust is so critical in business and leadership, and we talk about this a fair bit as well, and I think the other thing is understanding the purpose of it. So you know, if you're a leader and you're well, you're in this situation, which you probably are there's a couple of foundational elements. So do they understand, are you sharing with them the purpose of why this change is happening? You know, make sure that that's kind of a basic hygiene factor of rolling out change. Some people listening may be out doing the basic hygiene factors and other people will be. So if we kind of start from the beginning and go, and what I mean by basic hygiene factor, the foundational, the kind of minimum standard in terms of rolling out change, we're going to assume that you're communicating it in a way that you're leading with purpose, you're sharing the with them, you're thinking about the positive impact to your team members and to the team. And keep in mind, we were talking to a business leader, a business owner who's been in business for 20 years yesterday, you know, and she was saying that there's a lot of change in her business and what she realized was that she's sharing some changes that her and the key stakeholders of the business have been talking about for months. They've been thinking about it for months. They've been talking about it for months and they've rolled it out and they can be just like, ah, why aren't they just getting it? This change is good, but the team have known about it for five minutes. So be patient. So how are you communicating it? Make sure the purpose is outlined. Be patient because, remember, your team probably don't know about it as long as you've known about it, so they need a bit of time to warm up. Build the trust. Absolutely. These are the foundational elements.

Nicky:

What I think is really fascinating about this conversation as well, ness, when you talked about the change resistant. This is why I think it's important for us, as leaders, to consider our language. So, even using words like we're rolling out change I mean, that's such a basic way of saying we're probably not saying that but or, you know, using the words change fatigue. If you've got team members that are really change resistant, they can jump on something like change fatigue and use it as an excuse or a reason to stay stuck. Now, I'm a massive people person and I think it's important to consider the wellbeing of our people and ourselves, and I also think it's important to look at again what's driving the unresourceful behaviour. So I just think we have to be careful about language like change fatigue, even using the word change a lot, you know you can use words like here's improvements to the business, here's like just get creative around how you're rolling it out.

Nicky:

Yeah, the other thing is you, as a leader, might be feeling like you're over it, like you shared this, so you've got to take care of yourself before you can take care of others. So think about how are you framing these things in your mind as well and it's so important the elephant in the room be comrades. So you're still leading. You're still absolutely leading and people are looking at you for how are you taking on this change, and you can be vulnerable and open up as well. You can say there's a lot of different things that we're focusing on at the moment.

Nicky:

See how I said change in a different way. There's a lot of different things that we're focusing on at the moment. I get it Like it can be. It can feel a little bit challenging at times. What's the open conversation around team? How are we going to? How are we going to get through this together? What's some things that we can do together to maybe have a bit of fun with it or take it lightly. So I I say this with caution in. You know, change fatigue is a real thing, but let's not overuse the analogy, the wording or use it as a reason to get stuck. Does that make? Yeah, does that make sense? Absolutely. Do the smart growth survey in under 60 seconds to get your hands on our smart growth Absolutely. Currently, in, whether it's crisis, build growth or momentum mode, so that you can move your way to the next phase with ease. All you have to do is click the link in the show notes.

Ness:

You know, one of the models that I found really, really useful for me to remind myself but also to share with my teams when we go through this kind of thing and our clients, but also to share with my teams when we go through this kind of thing and our clients is the conscious competence model. And so the best way that I could describe this is through the example of learning how to drive a car. So when you're under the age of 16, you have an unconscious incompetence around driving a car because you're sitting in a car, right, someone else is driving it. You don't even know you can't drive a car. It's just not even in the realm of your mindset that there's somebody that's doing things to make this car move. So, prior to any change being rolled out, let's say there's a change in we're introducing a whole new like Salesforce system across the whole business, right, and prior to us even talking about that, we're all sitting in the car just watching someone else do something, not even realizing we don't know. The next phase is conscious incompetence. So you actually know you don't know how to drive a car. When you get your learners, it's that whole thing around, as I remember my two kids bunny hopping down the road because I just went yeah, you got your learners chuck the L plates on the back and let's go for a drive. And then we're in traffic and we're like having these panic attacks. So it's like I know I can't drive this car, so it's the same thing, like this change is big, it's different. I've never used this system before. I feel incompetent and that makes me feel like I'm not adding value. So people are going to have a response to that because that taps into their worthiness, how they feel important at work, because they knew the old system so well. So whenever we had a change of system in Centrelink, everyone would just stay on the old one. Until you had to change over. Right, it was very rare people were ready to jump in.

Ness:

And then once we get used to it, once we spend time, once we have got our questions answered, once we have done the repetitive work about whatever it is we've introduced, we get to this state of conscious competence. So we actually are fully aware, as we're stepping ourselves through and driving the car, we're fully aware that we're putting the blinker on, that we're changing gears, that we're stepping ourselves through and driving the car, we're fully aware that we're putting the blinker on, that we're changing gears, that we're turning the wheel, that we're looking around us and in our blind spots. So there's this conscious awareness of I know how to drive the car and this is how I'm going to get from here to there. Ultimately, we're going to hit unconscious competence, which is where you drive a car and you can't even remember getting from the last, like you get home 20 minutes and you go oh, I actually don't remember going through that intersection back there, because it just comes second nature. You're changing gears, you're like doing everything, but you're not even thinking about it. You're listening to the radio or you're thinking about what you're going to do on the weekend and this is where we come back to. So then we come another change and we start back at the beginning.

Ness:

So it's a really good model to step back and go. This is a normal behavior that everybody can expect to go through, and when we say that and when we help our people understand that this is the process that's going to happen. Some of you are going to be quicker than others, but we're here to support and we're going to continually engage you in the process and make sure you're okay. Let's remove the barriers away from what's stopping you to get to the next level of competency. I think it actually makes a difference because it normalises it and people feel like it's okay for me to work through this process and feel a bit. You know, this is the reason why I'm being so resistant, and I think that is about breaking down those barriers. Can you think of any other key things that we might have missed or could be added to this conversation?

Nicky:

Sure, I think what's really important about what you just said is normalizing the discomfort in it. So, again, what I mentioned earlier was around understand the core driver, the reason why someone might be resistant to change or, you know, flipping into unresourceful behavior or calling in sick or like that's a great indicator. Something's missing in the communication chain. And what I love about what you know, understanding the core competence model. I can't remember what it's called, but and also, by the way, oh my gosh, how many times have we gotten home and thought I can't remember driving here.

Nicky:

I'm sure everybody can relate to that. It's a bit scary in the moment, but it normalizes the discomfort because it actually feels really crap when, particularly if you have been in your job for 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, and you are damn good at it, you know how to do it, and then all of a sudden you feel like you can't do it. That feels crap, that feels really uncomfortable and there's a bit of an ego shift in that as well. And you know that's when then some defensiveness can come out and then that's when some pushback can come out. So that might be one reason why somebody's resisting against the change, which could or could not be change fatigue. But it's a reality that we're dealing with. So, again, I think it comes back to normalizing that. As a leader, it might be oh man, I've got to get my head around the system. Okay, this is going to be uncomfortable. And if they see you going, oh, it's a bit uncomfortable acknowledging that elephant in the room and embracing it and going. But you know what we can do this, one step at a time. That's going to really help. So I think that's super important in this conversation and I feel like there's a few threads already around understanding what's driving the change fatigue. How are you rolling it out? How are you nurturing conversations? There's a delicate balance between nurturing and guiding people through that and a tipping point where it's also and this is what we're here to do so we kind of have to pull up our big girl, big boy, big person pants, put them on and just kind of get into it, because there is that point and you know, if we come back to it's ticking off, are the basic essentials done, the basic hygiene factors done, and then, if they're not coming to the party, it could be a bigger conversation.

Nicky:

I think the one thing I would add in terms of listeners and viewers reflecting on have I done these things when I'm rolling out the change to avoid this change fatigue is you mentioned as well in like the one-on-one conversation. So maybe it's in the coaching, maybe it's in the one-on-one Check-ins. Understand that people will respond and react to change at different paces. So some people are more visionary, they're more like yeah, I love change, let me had it. And maybe you embrace that and you might give some people a bit of a heads up or get them to be first fast followers or buddy people up, champion them In those one-on-one conversations.

Nicky:

The tone of that conversation might be different. Still check in, because they still also, though, can get change fatigue. Let's not assume that they're just always because we're human beings, but other people. They need more time to think about it. Maybe it's giving them a bit more of a heads up earlier, or maybe they do need a one-on-one check-in afterwards. So it's again that balance of where unique individuals don't assume someone's going to respond or react in a certain way. Definitely check in with them and leverage the natural strengths in the team and nurture everybody at their own pace.

Ness:

Absolutely, because some people are a period of time convincer, some people are a number of time convincer and what that means is they're slower to adapt and accept change. But the more they have access to what's happening, the more certainty it builds in them and then the more likely they are to move through that resistance more quickly. And I think for what I saw when I was working with the team that I had, it was around communication that you said earlier. But even in the communication of there's no communication was important for them. Because what I found was you know, there's some decisions are getting made further up the chain that just as a leader, you just hear that we're not ready to roll on this yet or you know we might get told something that we can't tell our team.

Ness:

but the team in the of certainty will create their own certainty which will be completely dramatized and take them off because again we're coming back to this unproductive space. So really important to continue to update and say just to let you know there's no updates, we're still on track, but this is what's going on so that they because they're waiting for it and expecting it Not all change is going to run smoothly.

Nicky:

We get holdups and all those kinds of things Like a wedding, there's always going to be something that goes wrong and that's okay. I think that's actually a really important point. Probably, to finish out on here, around there's a gap in their need for certainty that's being met. So what are other ways that you can meet that need for certainty? So that's one. Absolutely Make sure that your things like make sure your meeting times are consistent on the consistent days and consistent times and don't move them, because even little things like that will help create some certainty. I love that the update is. There's no update, so don't cancel the meeting. If you've got a cadence of coaching, keep that consistently.

Nicky:

What are the other things that are not changing in their role or their environment and put them in the spotlight. So bring the focus to this is how we're rolling. It's kind of it is the circle of influence. What are the things we can influence? Bring the focus to this is how we're rolling. It's kind of it is the circle of influence. What are the things we can influence?

Nicky:

But the discipline and consistency of team meetings, of catch-ups, of seeing and hearing you as the leader, your presence. The worst thing you can do is go behind your door, close the door and not be present. It's kind of the boring stuff as well consistency around the boring stuff. It might not seem like a big thing to you, but it actually is going to give them something to hold on to. So that's probably an action as well. If you are in the midst of change, think about how are you being consistent and consistently showing up and what are the tasks or duties? Or you know ways that there can be that consistency, because that will breed certainty even when there's uncertainty in these other areas. That's probably an action that I would give today, ness, is there any other?

Ness:

actions that you would suggest. I love that action because it is about it's something that, again, if this isn't happening for you right now, it will at some point. So it's that whole thing around, I guess, stepping back, and it is about taking time out, even though there's lots going on, and asking that question how can I bring more certainty to the team and myself right now? And so, within that, I think that that will start to identify what to do next, and we've given lots of different ideas throughout this episode and we trust that that comes in handy.

Nicky:

I will also say, if you are unsure about the right amount of touch points with team communication et cetera, we created an infographic that goes through our recommended eight best practice touch points for your team. It's not eight per week, but it's over the 12 months. What are the best touch points that your team? It's not eight per week, but it's over the 12 months. What are the best touch points that get the best outcomes to make your team feel supported? So if you want that guidance, all you have to do is click the link in the show notes for the Smart Growth Blueprint. When you do that 60 second survey, you'll get access to the team code. So immediately you can get your hands on that and that's just a good way to cross-check what you're already doing with your teams.

Ness:

Yeah, absolutely, and because communication is key. That's why that resource is amazing. Thank you so much for listening this week. We can't wait to be back in your listening ears again next week. Till then, have a great time. See you later. Thanks for listening to today's ep. If you loved what you heard, connect with us over on LinkedIn and let's continue the conversation over there. Nicky and I are obsessed with helping businesses install smart business growth strategies and leveraging people leadership for peak performance. We bring two business minds and two perspectives into your business, and our number one goal is to make sure that your business is thriving. Our number one goal is to make sure that your business is thriving, your team are thriving and you are thriving. We offer a 30-day business diagnostic, taking you from chaos to clarity in just 30 days. Are you curious to find out more? Send us an email or go old school and give us a call. Until next time, happy listening and here's to thriving in business and in life.